Oh and btw it snowed in Houston!!! It was crazy, after church this evening I was attacked by a onslaught of snowballs. Then we went sledding on one of two "hills" in Pasadena. Actaully it was more like a large dirt pile, but it got the job done. It was a blast!!
None of these Houstonians have sleds, so we used the top of a toy box that some of the boys of the congregation loaned us. It was really funny, but it worked well. We all threw plenty of snow and were really wet and cold afterward, but it was well worth it. I even got to hit Jerry Fite with a snowball! Hoorah!
And the really odd thing was it was about 70 degrees yesterday, and today it snowed...odd, very odd. And if the locals are right it will be back up in the mid 60s by the end of the week. Strange, but hey it's good for the golf game!
Hope you have a Jim Dandy Day!
From snowy Houston
Chao
~Westbrook
I will praise You with uprightness of heart,
When I learn Your righteous judgments.
I will keep Your statutes;
Oh, do not forsake me utterly!
What is important is recognizing that words like "metonymy" and "literal" are literary functions. They describe how words are used, not necessarily how things exist in reality. It's easy to confuse the two, and it happens quite often.
That's why any idea of a "literal indwelling" does not make a lot of sense, since literal is limited to the way words are used. "Concrete indwelling" is probably a better description, but then again, what is "concrete" about the Spirit?
As to cause/effect, that involves a significant level of interpretation. It's presuming a priori that the cause is not present based upon some philosophical tenets, which is always scary in terms of Biblical exegesis (Colossians 2:9).
We should be wary of mandating that since physical persons are one way, spiritual persons must be the same way. We don't know the physiology of spiritual beings. That's not revealed to us. It is not against God's nature of communication to recognize that there are the "secret things" that belong to God alone (Deuteronomy 29:29). Some things are revealed, other things are not; we do not do well to presume upon Scripture with our own philosophical presuppositions.
And I rest in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20. Again, Paul employs Temple imagery and uses it in reference to believers. The whole concept involved-- body as Temple of the Holy Spirit "who is in you," therefore, body must be kept holy, requires that the presence be substantive. Without the substantive presence, the whole concept is hollow.
As to your question about the "work of the Spirit apart from the Word of God," I again go back to the fact that the Word is Christ. The Word is not the Spirit, and the revelation represents the communication of the Word, being Christ, to various people throughout history.
So, to me, the question is based on faulty presuppositions. The Spirit does nothing apart from the Father and the Word. But the role of the Spirit-- His function in the Godhead-- is not limited to or even primarily defined by His revelatory work. Romans 8 speaks of His intercession in prayer. Galatians 5 presupposes the active work of the Spirit with the believer relative to the manifestation of the fruit. 1 Corinthians 2 would presuppose that the Spirit guides in understanding of the Word, and 1 Peter 1:2 goes so far as to speak of sanctification as "in the Spirit". Thus, while the Spirit does have the responsibility of communicating to mankind the revelation of the Word (Christ), His role is much more involved with humans than just the revelation.
Are you in a barbershop quartet. There's a fellow here in Texas City who's a barbershop quartet guy. He has a lot of tapes/cd's etc. I'm sure he'd love to visit with you if you are ever interested.
That would be wonderful. I think she would be up to it. She is some what open minded when it comes to things. She has come to services wtih me several times and really enjoyed. She also agreed with a lot of things that were being said. I think I remember Jerry preaching a lesson on this topic sometime recently. I'll have to see if I can find the cd of it and have Paul burn me a copy.
We just watched a great golf movie "The Greatest Game Ever Played" about Francis Ouimet (I think that is the spelling). Once in NYS there was a freezing 4th of July. It was in the 1800s and after a volcano somewhere that really covered the earth with a bunch of ash in the atmosphere and caused havoc with the temperatures all over.
This is not exhaustive by any means, but written to stir up thought and to generate a better understanding of our God, The Holy Spirit.
In Colossians 1:27 Paul states "...the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory."
Also, in 1 John 4:15, John writes "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him..." In these passages it appears that deity is within us. Yet, we understand that the actual person of Christ or the Father is not literally inside of us. We know that Jesus and the Father are in heaven (Acts 2:33; 7:55). It is also apparent that a person is not able to be divided and still maintain identity as a singular being.
These previous passages use metonymy, which is "a figure by which one name or noun is used instead of another." Thus, when Christ is referred to as being in you, Paul is meaning that the knowledge of the resurrection is within us (our hope of glory), not the person of Christ. Also in 1 Jn. 4:15 “God abides in him” does not refer to the actual person of deity within us, rather God’s authoritative Word and Will in our minds and lives.
Even though the concept of metonymy can be clearly understood with the person of God or Christ, sometimes there is unnecessary confusion regarding the person of the Holy Spirit. The scriptures clearly reveal that the Holy Spirit is a being that is identified as a person: He is described as deity(Acts 5:1-4), He speaks (1 Tim.4:1), He can be grieved (Eph.4:30), and He can be lied to (Acts 5:1-4). There are several other passages that show aspects of the person of the Holy Spirit, however, we can be absolutely certain that He is a distinct person and He shares in the nature of deity with God and Christ. Since the Holy Spirit shares the same attributes of a person of deity this would mean that He is a singular being who would not be able to be divided and still maintain personage.
Thus the same concept of metonymy that is applied to Christ(Col. 1:27) and God (1 Jn. 4:15) should also be applied to the Holy Spirit. For example, in Acts 2:17, Peter quotes the prophet Joel showing that on the day of Pentecost, God began to pour out His Spirit (the Holy Spirit). With our knowledge of metonymy we can correctly understand this passage to mean the power of the Holy Spirit was being poured out, or ushered forth, to all flesh. This does not mean that the person of the Holy Spirit was being poured out, rather His power. This came through the power of the miraculous gifts, the gift of salvation to man and eventually through the complete revelation of God's word, not some mystical indwelling. This is particularly evident in light of Acts 2:17-21 which demonstrates the effect of the pouring out, namely prophecy.
Also in Titus 3:5-6 we find that God “saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ.” The same thought applies to Titus as it did in Acts 2. Paul is not alluding to a pouring out of the person of the Holy Spirit within each individual Christian, but he is referring to the effects or works of the Holy Spirit. Paul illustrates this in the context by referencing the renewing of the Holy Spirit in regards to salvation, not a indwelling of the person of the Holy Spirit. The "renewing of the Holy Spirit" is an adjustment and recalibrating of our thoughts and actions to the Will of God generated by the Spirit through the Word. This Word works in us today! (1 Thess. 2:14).
It was not the Person that was poured out, it was the Holy Spirit’s work.
Hope you are having a great week! God bless!
Chao
~Westbrook
You have commanded us
To keep Your precepts diligently.
Oh, that my ways were directed
To keep Your statutes!
Then I would not be ashamed,
When I look into all Your commandments.
If the work of the Spirit were so limited, then perhaps we could confine it to the Word.
First of all, it should be noted that the Word has more to do with the Son; after all, He is the Word of God (John 1:1). The Spirit provides the revelation of that Word to mankind in written form, but it is always a reflection of that Word.
I understand what you say about "metonymy," although I don't know if that's really the word to describe it. Metonymy involves describing a part in terms of the whole, and this does not seem to be that, per se.
Anyway, 1 Corinthians 6:20 does posit the body as a Temple in which the Holy Spirit "dwells." If there is no real concept of the presence, regardless of how that happens in reality, the image and the commandment are hollow.
Well, Im back in Houston and I am surprised to find that coming back felt like I was coming home, not sure why but it did.
So Chicago was interesting. I got to spend some quality time with my cousin Matt. We had a bit of disagreement over "culture"
In my time around downtown Chicago I began to notice a trend in most of the regulars. They seemed kinda preppy. I mean, they had their nice slacks/polo-shirt/pressed black coat (and/or accesorizing scarf)/ drank their coffee at the corner coffee shop, while checking the internet on their Mac/ Shopping at the overpriced-organic-stocked-supermarket/ all the while frequently "cultured" locales around downtown. I deemed this preppy.
Matt disagreed- he calls it "urban-metro" culture. I think it is rather snobbish and overly pretentious. Is this a legitimate "culture" or just an extension of people trying to be hip? What say you?
Coming back from Chicago was an event. We flew through a thunderstorm. It was bumpy and a bit nerve racking. I was wondering what it would be like to hear thunder while on an airplane. Anyone here have that experience?
Word of the day- "Theodicy"
Hope ya have a fantastic week!
Chao~
Westbrook
Blessed are the undefiled in the way,
Who walk in the law of the LORD!
Blessed are those who keep His testimonies,
Who seek Him with the whole heart!
They also do no iniquity;
They walk in His ways.
I think walking around a college campus in overalls is snobbish and pretentious. Perhaps, not trying to be "hip," but certainly getting more attention than slacks and a polo. :P
i think matt is right, it has become its own culture. also, one time on a plane the oxygen masks in the row in front of me dropped down because the guy flew up during turbulence and his head knocked them loose. pretty rundown/scary plane we were on.
Hahaha! Oh, Caleb. You mother should have taught you better than to pour milk in your eyes! ;) What in the world are we going to do with you?? I hope that you have a good day!!
um.... it was nice to see you too, Caleb. And if you get bored of preppy urban-metros, I recommend talking to the homeless. They're much more interesting.
i agree it's a culture. but there are people who try to immulate cultures in the pretense of being hip (for example the hip hop culture) so maybe, you're both right :)
Well, I think the "culture" in general consists of people trying to be hip, and the current version of that is these urban-metros. I think. Anyway, you forgot to mention 3 other awesome cousins that you spent time with....
And I appreciate your passion for key lime pie. I like it when people get really truly excited about food.
heh... if you call 800-645-4141, you can get a free Bible courtesy of the Mormons; I'm not sure if the Book of Mormon or Pearl of Great Price comes with it, but at least they're offering the REAL stuff! ;)
HA! to your comment. Thanks for the confidence... ;)
Sorry about the rambling voicemail yesterday; I thought about re-calling and leaving another message to clarify/apologize for the craziness of it but figured you'd live without an explanation. Thanks for chatting and the psychological lecture Saturday. :)
It is kind of a girl thing. It's about a girl who finds a guy who likes her for her, kind of a romeo/juliet thing. But then there is the whole vampire action stuff. So a guy might somewhat enjoy it if dragged by his girlfriend..haha
Acts 17:21 states, “For the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing.” There are times where the attitude of the Athenians in their incestuous desire for novelty can describe some of our approaches to biblical study.
There are times when brethren have asked why we continue to study particular texts or topics if “everyone already believes the truth on it,” or since “we have heard this a hundred times.” Without being mundane or a hobby horse, we must understand that it is necessary to continue teaching and reviewing truths that we have learned in the past.
The New Testament writers urged for the review of truth in several areas. For example, Paul wrote the Corinthians saying “For this reason I have sent Timothy to you who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church” (1 Cor. 4:17). The word “remind” means to “cause to remember or put in mind of something.” Paul also exhorts Timothy to “put the brethren in remembrance” of sound doctrine (1 Tim. 4:6, 2 Tim 2:14).
Peter also echoes these sentiments in 2 Pet. 1:12 “For this reason I will not be negligent to remind you always of these things though you know and are established in the present truth.” Here Peter states that even though these Christians knew the truth it was his objective to bring their minds to recall the truth. Peter further emphasizes his purpose of the epistle in 2 Pet. 1:15; 3:1, by repeating the significance of reminding these brethren of truth.
Even though there are several passages that establish the practice of reviewing or being reminded of truth that was previously learned, several brethren do not see the importance of such practice today. While vital fundamentals of truth– authority, conditions of salvation, baptism, fellowship, and many others– need to be taught today, several brethren think that these topics have been worn out and they seek a more “novel” message.
This effect can have disastrous consequences: from producing a generation that has forgotten fundamental areas of truth, to stretching scripture to say things it does not teach.
For example, instead of teaching on authority shown through the Bible, some men have labeled the topic of authority as “church of Christ tradition” and have sought a new hermeneutic. This has happened at the same time brethren have been complaining that authority has been over taught, while assuming that everyone believes the same thing. This neglect of instruction has lead to a development of false teaching on authority and is the root of the current battle of instrumental music and other departures among some of our brethren.
If we are not constantly reminded of the truth, we lay the foundation of an apostasy. We must not merely seek things that are “new,” but only strive to seek that which is true. If we do not do this how can we be surprised if we fall from the truth? We must not be like the Athenians, who just desire the new, but we must always desire to be reminded of truth
On the contrary, 4 out of 4 churches of Christ I've been a member of in the last 4 years have specifically had a series of sermons on the topic of authority. I would not say it has been neglected at all, but is at the forefront of what is being taught and what churches are dealing with. If people aren't so accepting of the hermeneutic, perhaps it is because it has inconsistencies that people are questioning.
Tho, I have seen churches that spend so much time re-hashing the same issues and neglect others that need to be taught. We must be careful that we are "reviewing" ALL the truths. Good post. That should go on the dailybread forum :P
Yes, this is a good way to put it. We recently had a gospel meeting with Charley Ward, who said something very similar to paragraph 3. My boss once expressed amazement that I would "need" to go to church three times a week, he didn't need that since he knew everything already (or so he thinks ;) I didn't have time to respond, but this would have been a great response! I need to be reminded, that's why! :)
Thanks for the info. Tho i think we're plannin to go to the lake charles meeting and only tuesday works. Too bad tho, tell him he was awesome for us :D
i did try temps once before, but didn't have much luck. i'm just looking for a 2nd job to help with funds. i think i might have found one though :) thanks!
thanks! we do too! We're going to the republican victory party @ the Galleria Westin tomorrow. They usually have lots of free election paraphernalia. let me know if you are interested in going and i can get you the info!
My wife is from Tortuguitas - like a suburb of Buenos Aires. I've been there a few times. Preached a gospel meeting there last year and hope to go back next November. Buenos Aires is 4 times the size of Houston, but only has a handful of faithful brethren. But they are good and loving, as true brethren are.
